so uh yeah my unpopular opinion is that

git is awful and it needs to die die die

die wow

why why why why why yeah well because it

doesn't scale uh among other things also

it's completely unintuitive and it's

honestly it's it's

oh God you're gonna get me ranting uh

look first of all I've seen

I don't get the unintuitive part I guess

because I used SVN and perforce those

don't feel very intuitive either

as fian emotionally hurt me I did love

tortoise though

tortoise SVN

and a company that bisco and I both

worked at

computers unlimited which sounds like a

1970s computer repair shop so they

renamed it Tim's which is

now sounds like a fishing shop

um

they had a even

rapper around everything called

trebuchet which everyone just called

tree bucket

and I hated it I hated my life I hated

it I hate it I don't want to go back to

SVN

the thing is is that I don't mind

specifically on something like this I

don't mind if you on it but I want

to hear a good alternative all right

let's let's see some Alternatives here

visions of control systems come and go

right I started with RCS and then CVS

and then SVN and then pert force and it

went on and on Piper at Google and and

then get in Mercurio and I mean get was

just another one and it had great

marketing it had great it had some sort

of great virality it's really kind of

garbage the whole thing is just it's

very powerful and flexible but uh and it

doesn't scale like fundamentally all the

companies that we work with that use git

have you know maybe a hundred thousand

git repos what what are you gonna do

with a hundred thousand git repos you

know Android struggled with this

mightily when I was uh on the Android

team at Google right I mean just we had

all these huge rappers around git to

deal with multiple repos because of the

open source problem and you know the

internal stuff and I just learned to

hate git but is that a git problem was

that a git problem or was that not a git

problem you have part of first off you

have part of your thing that's open

source part of it that's not open source

by the way the not open source part

that's the spying part that's the NSA

backdoor issue you know what I'm talking

about that's the back door part

um anyway so when you're hiding your

back door now you're trying to have like

two repos that are going together

I mean that's always difficult like is

that ever easy I don't think it is

sub modules

did you just say the word sub module

sub module is the world's greatest idea

that is emotionally painful every time

it happens

nobody likes sub modules

everybody thinks sub modules are going

to be good nobody loves sub modules

we still use sub modules

I hate it here

I hate git and I think that there's an

unhealthy dependence on both git and

GitHub I think that's fair I think the

GitHub Reliance thing is actually a real

that that's a fair critique which is now

we we really just wrapped up a single

point of failure

um and it's also owned by Microsoft so I

don't trust it at all now I'm just

wondering when the next monetization is

going to come out from it other than

using all my sweet sweet programs

whether or not my license says not to

for co-pilot but besides for that I'm

just saying

GitHub is a monopoly they're closed

fundamentally I think that that micro

Microsoft under Satya has been a very

open ecosystem right look at vs code

yeah right look at I mean they've been

some really cool stuff but GitHub I

don't I don't trust this guy's opinion

anymore this is getting hard for me to

really love this opinion

because I'm just saying that's that's a

hard opinion to believe that it's just

really open when a copilot X Works only

for vs code uh they're building these SP

these like spaces online and everything

they're just trying to take your

computer take everything and just charge

you monthly for it

I don't trust Microsoft one bit it's an

acquisition and they're still very oh

we're just doing

free and we love

[Music]

we look really when has a company ever

been really great for no reason come on

very very closed off and you know uh and

I I don't I I think developers like

GitHub too much I mean maybe the

Alternatives aren't that great but like

I I see this uh you like it just too

much too much liking going on it will

stop from here on out

um I do get what he's saying though I do

get what he's saying it's a great Pro I

mean the thing is it's a good product

have you used stash stash is not that

much fun okay I haven't used gitlab I

don't have enough use with gitlab to

really understand it

it's attachment to it and I'm like stuff

changes and you're not holding a high

enough bar it's not good enough you

should never be satisfied with the state

of the art if it's killing you and right

now the state of the art is killing us

how's it killing us yeah 100 000 repos

every company okay that's the killing us

but why is that bad

I gotta understand why is having

multiple repos bad

why is having Netflix's

python slash whatever the hell the

language is repo that is designed to

help produce algorithmic recommendations

separated from the UI Library why why is

that good or bad

right

to me I don't I don't I don't think

I don't see why they have to be the same

code base right I don't even see why

they're related but who's feeling that

pain I'm not feeling that pain well you

don't have that many repos is anybody

working on this who's working on this

well Facebook just launched what is it

sapling right which looks kind of

promising although it didn't start

taking the getting the acceleration that

I was looking at but changing code hosts

is a big deal for people you guys want

an unpopular opinion on giving you like

potentially the most no no we're we're

with you this is part of the game here

we're playing the game I'm enjoying this

I'm considering it I do like GitHub I'm

wondering you said maybe they like it

too much and I'm thinking the product is

good though so that's why I like it like

it's good it's decent you haven't used

Google's tools true

check mate I I I'm curious about

Google's internal tool I've never worked

at Google

it'd be fun to actually use like what

does a company that builds everything

themselves what does it look like right

I know you've never used Google tools

I.E you never passed Google's interview

I.E wrecked

um

draw the little square

proved uh but real talk

I would like to try out Google's tools

right I've never worked at Google I

think it'd be a lot of fun

so

oh no could be cool

I think I'd get bored pretty quick at

Google though real talk I think I think

I'd get pretty

I think I get pretty pretty bored so if

Google's tools are that much better

then why

doesn't Google make a better

revisioning system and then why doesn't

Google create the hosting for it and why

doesn't Google just simply make all the

monies from it

right

there has to be a lot of monies on it

and you got Google barred the subpar AI

why not just have a hosting service for

free

and then slurp up all the data from it

some people need a source graph another

source graph uh swords graph Source

graph I would argue is you know because

the the folks at source graph actually

love GitHub and haven't used Google's

tools Source staff is you know I mean

Source graph is better than GitHub in a

lot of ways but you know Source graph

doesn't try to be GitHub with all the

workflows and all that stuff right

TJ wrecked TJ TJ is in shambles

TJ are you in shambles right now

shambled TJ

shout out can we get a shout out for TJ

he works at sourcecraft why would I be

in shambles uh because you're just like

a not as good GitHub as what I take from

this and github's killing people so that

means you're killing people faster what

I mean by that is they Beyond work there

and Quinn worked there the history of

knowing Google tools using Google Google

tools and then being an expat of Google

and then doing something without it is

what I mean by that they were the

inspiration right we need yeah we need

somebody to say okay I've been in Google

and I've used Google tooling and we need

a non-github that is Google toying

that's better a startup that knows

Google's tools but I can then recreate

them yeah who's who's gonna do that who

I think that doing that sounds unfun I'm

just gonna throw it out there

I don't think I would like doing that

personally who would you bet on

to do that

you mean to to come up with a Google

style tool so well that's that's

I really wish you would qualify what a

Google tool is

because I think that would help a lot of

us try to understand exactly what does

he mean by

why Google is better like I love like an

example or a a diagram or something

something that I understand why it's

better because I I guess I'm a little

confused as to why it's better think

angular I don't want to think about that

come on man that's my

dreams

oh I see so this is not the beating this

might be the beginning of a new story

sorry the Vault by the way his volume is

very low it's been it's been hard I'm

trying to get it as good as I can it

could be I like that so git isn't good

enough and I think you said GitHub is

bad I'm just trying to think of how

I would love a compare feature that

doesn't require me to have a pull

request and then manipulate the URL just

saying that'd be kind of nice just give

me just a button that says compare give

me a button that says diff like if I was

going to put this into it we're not

going to try to uh if you've been trying

to read the two leaves if I'm not trying

to tackle GitHub or anything like that

right now Karen unfortunately it's you

know it's the least bad right it's the

least of all the bad options least bad

of all right there but I truly believe

it could be a lot better and that and

that AI is going to make it a lot better

and um so you know I love being at

source graph because we can actually

bring that experience across there are

still bit bucket users in the world I'm

one

I mean to be fair I use stash which is

like

that's this bit bucket so I get it I'm

I'm I I Netflix is all on bitbucket

so

you know I deal with them honestly bit

bucket not all that bad

we have a good setup

you know if I wanna if I want some

automation I click a bunch of buttons on

uh Jenkins for about 20 minutes until I

find the job that I actually want

because their search is really confusing

and we have multiple sub domains to

different builds once I find the build I

want I copy the build and the

configuration then when I get the

configuration I updated the point at the

new stash URL and then boom I got CI

CI you know what I mean it's pretty neat

one oh yeah not not to get not the bit

look it's great either but have you used

fossil fossil SCM from Richard Hipp from

a sqlite it's a completely different way

of thinking about it maybe give that a

look fossil you never commit right like

it's always you commit but everything's

always synchronized around every piece

it's still distributed but it's always

synchronized it's never on your machine

only you never have to get push Master

it's just there I don't know if it

scales or not but they use it for sqlite

yeah I think fundamentally we need

somebody who who comes at this from the

perspective of we need to make this

scale up to world scale code bases okay

and I think that will ultimately come

out of Industry I think Facebook sapling

might be the closest but we'll see or

ask Google or somebody who leaves Google

and says I need a company you know

what's good was Google's tools you know

what's bad is git and I'm gonna try to

tackle this that could happen

still want to know what makes it better

just give me a three second explanation

what's the thing

you know gosh I'm so curious I'm so is

this actually how there is this Google

hiring

a guy to secretly get people to want to

work at Google

by not telling them but telling them how

great their tools are is this like a

psyop of the greatest amount because I'm

feeling very psyopped right now I'm

feeling super Psy often all of a sudden

I have this great desire to go work at

Google to go touch their tools I'm

getting foreplayed

this is foreplay I'm

I'm

what is Google's Tools in this case like

what do they have that would be better

the scale version of it why can you

describe it or is it under like NDA and

you can't tell anything about it forever

I got four played for five minutes

straight and now we're hearing about it

all right

pre-watched

no yeah it's just that like the the the

the code graph you know gets exposed

across the entire workflow so you know

on GitHub if you see a symbol in a pull

in a pull request you know you can't

click on it or hover it or get you know

graph information about it you know like

in your IDE

uh you know they don't they don't have

IDE quality indexing when you're you

know looking at like when you're looking

at Trace logs or debug views or whatever

all of that stuff is completely and

fully instrumented at Google where you

know so in other words their ability to

discover and diagnose problems uh is

just unprecedented there's a Gestalt to

it that's really hard to get across

that sounds like what sourcecraft's

doing he works at sourcegraph right

I mean that's I I love that idea I mean

I would like that but that's not I mean

to me what he just described isn't a git

problem specifically isn't it a tool on

top of git

because like is the version is the

revision the real thing that's needed is

that what causes it or is this actually

just a tool on top of code

to be smarter about everything

it feels like it's it's the things uh

We've abstracted overkid you can use

other Version Control Systems as well

yeah that's what I mean is that is the

Version Control really the place that

this should live to begin with it kind

of seems like this is something bigger

right this is LSP for the future

how has there been three golden kappas

in this chat why are people getting

golden caplets I never get a golden

Kappa why is my Kappa never golden okay

yes that's also my team works on it uh

we've talked about this for a while I

know I know we've talked about this and

we've talked about but that's what I'm

saying is why I don't I don't get the

the dislike forget I guess that's where

I'm struggling is I don't see the

connection between git

and what he just described maybe one

could argue that you could

I mean could you store language level

features in a

revision system

yeah because that's kind of what I see

is that there's a revision system

in which would have to store

like stuff about what's happening

because how is it supposed to understand

JavaScript or the linking between two

libraries that are internal like why

would you want to do that that's just it

just it fully that's why I love

sourcegraph right

I want more Source graph in my life not

less but more I want more TJ but it's a

very comfy environment by the way TJ if

I ever decide to try to get a different

job I would apply for Source graph

just let them know that they've won me

over

okay and it was you

if I were to apply somewhere else I'd

apply

Source graph

it's like a world scale IDE almost

except it's distributed internally can I

use some of your words from what you

wrote you this is in regards to code

search at Google so I would imagine

there's some similarity in uh

satisfaction score potentially for this

um this intelligence I suppose you said

by the way this guy's voice is the only

normalized voice in this whole thing

Google codes searches like the Matrix

except for developers it is it has near

perfect satisfaction score on Google's

internal surveys and pretty much every

Dev who leaves Google misses it this is

regards to code search this is the

reason why Source graph exists because

this was only a Google and everybody

else needs it too you want to say Google

Engineers today can navigate and

understand their own multi-billion line

code base better than perhaps any other

group of devs in such a large

environment so are you saying that they

have a tool like gator GitHub that's

that gives net intelligence this better

and no one else has access to this thing

this is their proverbial Secret Sauce

behind the scenes to be more efficient

as an engineering team despite everyone

now having to work on AI and kind of

being behind the ball that's right okay

that's right their tooling environment

in fact Google's entire infrastructure

stack not just the tools but everything

you use as a developer there even the

docs and stuff are just uh just

unbelievably good unstopidly good like

you just come in and you're like what

like it just it makes no sense like the

rest of the world just feels like people

just bang on rocks compared to Google

stuff

so I have long kind of on I think

how Google Google does stuff they're

technical artifacts how they do

promotions I think it creates a lot of

perverse incentives but based on what

he's saying maybe there are some things

that are good

from it this is Huli propaganda I I will

I do I think everyone is correct which

is if they're so good at all this why do

they kill everything they create Netflix

tooling we do not have anything like

this nothing at all nothing I could

never convince them to give it to the

rest of the developers if killed by

Google Google domains Google optimize

Google Cloud iot Core Google album

archive YouTube stories grasshopper

conversational conversational actions

Google Currents Google Street View

Standalone app a Jacquard Google code

completions Google stadia rip stadia uh

Google on HUB

um okay YouTube Originals a threaded

YouTube Originals rap that was not uh

wow oh my goodness thank you oh gosh I

can't read all this

oh my goodness okay some of these are

fair though

some of these have to be fair like

Google killed a Google uh desktop bar

desktop bar was a small inset window on

the Windows Toolbar to allow users to

perform search without leaving the

desktop I could see why this would be

killed right I think some of this is a

little unfair

on some of theirs right that was 17

years ago I know but I'm just saying a

few loads I mean obviously it's fun to

uh make fun of Google killing tons of

projects but let's be serious Google's

market cap is 1.7 trillion dollars like

they are shipping stuff that power such

an incredible amount to the world yes

and so you have to explore a bunch and

you have to create stuff that people

like but if it doesn't make a material

difference you have to kill it because

you don't want to have to have staff and

people hired around stuff that isn't

producing anything like I get it I'm not

against what they're doing but

the point still stands they kill stuff I

mean Netflix kills a bunch of features

too you just don't hear about it because

our features are all within a player

only Steve Baumer had been there

screaming about developers right okay

Falcor Falco hey hey TJ you know what

problem I had just yesterday

my Falcor client couldn't con couldn't

connect to the database server on the

current latest build of tvi so guess

what falcore still alive Felker still

alive it has been developed on in

literally a half decade but it's still

alive

that would do it that would do it well

this has been a very good unpopular

opinion maybe I like it yeah I

appreciate it I'm still thinking about

it yeah

I would love to see it I'd love to see

like a demo you know for the rest of the

world because sometimes you don't know

you're banging on rocks until you see

somebody who has like a more

sophisticated tool and you're like kind

of like when you're in vs code and you

don't realize how sophisticated it can

be so then you see someone in neovim and

you're just like wow

up and banging on rocks this whole time

like oh I could do that yeah I mean you

can see you can see Google code search

if you just type chromium code search

they've indexed it was I actually did I

actually liked I do like the chromium

code search stuff I used it quite a bit

to explore the V8 engine it's very very

good their chromium code search stuff is

incredible this is on my way out it was

my Swanson at Google uh at least in the

code search team it was was was indexing

the Android and chromium code basis so

you can play with it it doesn't have all

of the functionality but it has a lot

and you can see it's very slick uh you

know navigation it's just it's really

really good but that's only the search

stuff and that's that's actually not

even used that much compared to some of

the other things like their their quick

editor uh and uh so cider they have and

then sit-see they're clients in the

cloud they have basically cloud-based

clients and oh my God the stuff they

have is like science fiction still the

stuff they had 15 years ago is still

science fiction for the rest of the

world like they have high speed networks

and they can make they can they can do

uh incred edible

it's really nice it's really nice so

yeah the rest of the world is kind of

hurting and that's that's why I'm still

in this space because I think the rest

of the world needs to get to where

Google's at wow thank you changelog that

was awesome

hey that's me in my own video being

promoted to me

um thank you that was actually really

good um I really like that I okay so I'm

still confused by the get things still I

I don't understand why it gets the

problem on this stuff but I I understand

what he's trying to say which is that

the tools we use are absolutely awful

comparatively to what say Google has

either way this is it's very interesting

I would love I mean I really want to

just get like an exp I want to go

experience the Google tools just to feel

them

and then take that experience

and go that's what they mean this is why

it's bad I would love it I would love

that experience

either way the name

is I don't understand why it gets like

so battle it's killing I don't it seems

kind of intense but I guess I haven't

seen the other side maybe I'm just the

one with rocks here okay a gin